Curse

XvArchonvX · Nov 09, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I gotta agree with the general view that you should choose to go either heal or prot rather than spread yourself thin trying to both reduce damage and relieve it at the same time. From my experience I have found that as a monk you want to focus on your goal and then specialize in it. If you want to reduce damage taken, go prot. If you want to relieve damage, go heal. If you want to do damage, go smite. There are plenty of professions out there that can often fill the support role better than monks in many situations (i.e. rits, paragons, etc.) and imho, it is best to leave it to these classes to do this.

I would disagree with Talin in I have found Heal Party to be helpful in most situations with a large party (8 members or greater). When I run as a healer, I tend to see this as a don't-leave-home-without-it skill.

When I run as a healer in PvE I tend to stick by this formula:

Heal skill 1 - usually a large heal or heal enchant
Heal skill 2 - usually a relatively fast cast large heal such as Heal Other, Glimmer or WoH to counter any degree of spiking
Heal skill 2 - standard spammable heal or self heal
Condition Removal
Hex Removal - I tend to find Inspired Hex to work well here, but may be replaced for something with a faster recharge time for hex heavy areas
Heal Party - When used at the right time, this can be the most energy efficient heal spell
Variable Slot - Depending on other skills this may be another heal, energy management skill, or Holy Haste
Rez of Choice - If you have a good energy hiding weapon set, Rebirth can be incredibly effective and even used to rez mid battle in certain instances, though this is usually not suggested. If you run Holy Haste, then Rez Chant is an excellent choice since it will be reduced to a 4 second cast time.

Effigy · Nov 09, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Heal Party is a great skill, but it's also very expensive. Also, it gains very little benefit from DF. I take it sometimes when there's nothing else I really need, but I find there are few situations where it would actually be efficient to use it.

If you have an elementalist in your group, which is quite common, it's better to have him bring Heal Party. The sad fact is most E/Mo's wouldn't want to bring it because they'd have to swap out one of their ub3r nukez0rz and run more than two attributes.

As far as playing a "pure" build versus a hybrid, the difference in the effectiveness of your skills is not that much to lament over. People seem to forget that attributes have diminishing returns with inversely proportional cost the higher you raise them. Sure, you can heal for a few more points per spell by taking 16 Healing and 13 DF, but if you diversify a bit, the utility and flexibility you gain easily offset the reduction in healing-per-cast from spreading your attribute points.

jesh · Nov 09, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

sorry, but this build is absolutely crap.

Glimmer of Light is all you need beside one other 5 energy heal, its spammable and should always be recharging. you have no, absolutely no energy management. you dont have condition NOR hex removal. Res Chant prooves that its a fail;

gg

Energy removal would be nice, and there are probably some extra skills in there, namely Orison, that don't have a place, but don't dismiss things so easily. Res Chant under Holy Haste is a 4 second res that is reusable and is definitely the highlight of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talin_The_Medic

Blessed light can work well, if like you said, you used it wisely

Any build can be used without energy management and still be just as effective, so if you can use that build as is, good job lol

I just personally don't like B-Light because it's 10 energy... without some kind of energy management I just don't like 10 energy spells (but that's just me)

(to king proculus) Everyone plays monk a little differently, you're most likely going to get a large variety of suggestions

The reason Blessed Light is fine by itself is because it's effectively Remove Hex, Mend Condition, and Orison all packed into one skill and put under DF. Throw in a signet and you have all the energy management you need, played effectively. I won't even bother doing the math to show you how huge of an energy engine 1 copy of Inspired Hex is after the nerf. *rolls eyes*

Talin_The_Medic · Nov 09, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Jesh I'll give blessed light a try.. I shouldn't be so biased

I see what you mean with the energy thing, I'll try a blessed light/healing build and see how it works.. I'll just go piece it together

Sorry I didn't think more about it, just started using 10e spells a lot more lately, and it's been working fine for me

XvArchonvX · Nov 09, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Heal Party is a great skill, but it's also very expensive. Also, it gains very little benefit from DF. I take it sometimes when there's nothing else I really need, but I find there are few situations where it would actually be efficient to use it.

Running at 16 healing prayers, Heal Party gives 84 health to each member. In an 8 member party:
84 x 8 = 672 health
Condsidering that if you divide this by 3 you get 224 health healed for every 5 energy. I agree that this is not always needed, but when your group is under pressure you can either cast heal party once or cast a 5 energy skill 8 times. Of course if you spam this, it is wasted energy, but when used in the right circumstance, heal party is one of the most energy efficient heal skills out there.

jesh · Nov 09, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

XvArchonvX, I believe Ensign posted an energy efficiency chart or something on every heal in the game. Heal Party was way up there, you're right. So is Heal Area, and whenever I'm set to heal, I make sure I have it on me. With a little practice, you can estimate the AoE accurately and only hit party members with it. Even getting only 1 other person makes it better than 2 Orisons. (self heal)

Talin, I don't think you'll be dissapointed with Blessed Light. Yes, it's quite different than other monk builds, but you'll grow to love it.

I don't run Divine Boon with BL, but that may be just me. I guess you could try it either way.

Effigy · Nov 09, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Running at 16 healing prayers, Heal Party gives 84 health to each member. In an 8 member party:
84 x 8 = 672 health
Condsidering that if you divide this by 3 you get 224 health healed for every 5 energy. I agree that this is not always needed, but when your group is under pressure you can either cast heal party once or cast a 5 energy skill 8 times. Of course if you spam this, it is wasted energy, but when used in the right circumstance, heal party is one of the most energy efficient heal skills out there.

I agree that it is efficient under the right circumstances, but my point is those circumstances aren't common enough for you to devote 1/8 of your skillbar to it in most of PvE. Usually, your whole group shouldn't be down 80+ hp unless they are wading through AoE's or something along those lines. There are some missions where HP is very useful, but for most of them I rarely find the need for it.

The way I see it, I'd rather have a skill I can use frequently rather than one that's going to save me a little energy every 5-10 minutes or whatever. In any event, other classes like E/Mo's and N/Mo's can use HP more effectively while you do the spot healing. And I never run 16 Healing on my monk, so it wouldn't be as effective as the number you stated anyway.

XvArchonvX · Nov 10, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

I agree that it is efficient under the right circumstances, but my point is those circumstances aren't common enough for you to devote 1/8 of your skillbar to it in most of PvE. Usually, your whole group shouldn't be down 80+ hp unless they are wading through AoE's or something along those lines. There are some missions where HP is very useful, but for most of them I rarely find the need for it.

The way I see it, I'd rather have a skill I can use frequently rather than one that's going to save me a little energy every 5-10 minutes or whatever. In any event, other classes like E/Mo's and N/Mo's can use HP more effectively while you do the spot healing. And I never run 16 Healing on my monk, so it wouldn't be as effective as the number you stated anyway.

Ideally your group should never be under 100% health, but that's not very realistic either. Perhaps your PvE experience has been different than mine (if so I'd like to have your luck with PuGs), but in situations where Heal Party is not needed, I tend to find that having an extra single target heal skill in place of Heal Party isn't needed. If you only experience one or two members taking damage, then I don't understand how you can be stressed for space on your skill bar.

If you suggest that a prot skill should be brought instead than I will leave this argument to say that our disagreement goes well beyond Heal Party. I tend to believe that in PvE, if you want a prot monk, take a prot monk. If you want a heal monk, take a heal monk. Those that take on both at the same time seldom do either attribute justice. The greatest advantage of the healing attribute imho is that it has the strongest ability to raise health bars per amount of energy spent. If you are not maximizing this, then you might as well just settle for Boon Prot or heal from Divine Favor skills.

As for the argument that an E/Mo or N/Mo should be in charge of Heal Party, I tend to find that almost no one who joins PuGs runs heal party unless they are monk primaries, and for good reason. Heal Party eles and/or necs are good choices in PvP, but eles and necros meet a stronger damage potential in PvE (nukers and MMs) and are thus generally best suited for such. Also, the advantage of having another profession run Heal Party is to be able to counter constant full group pressure. In PvE, the full group pressure is infrequent and can go from non-existant to full on depending on changes in the quest or whether someone overaggroes or not. In short, Heal Party is generally not used as spam material in PvE like it is in PvP, but as a fallback skill for when things get a bit rough.

LightningHell · Nov 10, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Ideally your group should never be under 100% health, but that's not very realistic either. Perhaps your PvE experience has been different than mine (if so I'd like to have your luck with PuGs), but in situations where Heal Party is not needed, I tend to find that having an extra single target heal skill in place of Heal Party isn't needed. If you only experience one or two members taking damage, then I don't understand how you can be stressed for space on your skill bar.

If you suggest that a prot skill should be brought instead than I will leave this argument to say that our disagreement goes well beyond Heal Party. I tend to believe that in PvE, if you want a prot monk, take a prot monk. If you want a heal monk, take a heal monk. Those that take on both at the same time seldom do either attribute justice. The greatest advantage of the healing attribute imho is that it has the strongest ability to raise health bars per amount of energy spent. If you are not maximizing this, then you might as well just settle for Boon Prot or heal from Divine Favor skills.

As for the argument that an E/Mo or N/Mo should be in charge of Heal Party, I tend to find that almost no one who joins PuGs runs heal party unless they are monk primaries, and for good reason. Heal Party eles and/or necs are good choices in PvP, but eles and necros meet a stronger damage potential in PvE (nukers and MMs) and are thus generally best suited for such. Also, the advantage of having another profession run Heal Party is to be able to counter constant full group pressure. In PvE, the full group pressure is infrequent and can go from non-existant to full on depending on changes in the quest or whether someone overaggroes or not. In short, Heal Party is generally not used as spam material in PvE like it is in PvP, but as a fallback skill for when things get a bit rough.

ANY MORE ABOUT ELEMENTALIST NUKING AND I WILL SLAP SOMEONE.

J/k.

But yes, a Ether Prodigy powered Heal Party can take the slot of a Monk. I kept a whole team of henchies + a leeroy warrior alive with that one skill ~ fine, two, Prod and Party.

If I were to build a bar, I would put Blessed Light, Signet of Devotion, Protective Spirit, and Gift of Health, and stuff the rest with RoFs, Insp Hex, etc.

phasola · Nov 10, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Just run whatever you want, but don't take breeze or mending.

Just about anything works in pve: boons, rc prots, healers, hybrids, etc.

pingu666 · Nov 12, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

whats wrong with healing breeze? there seems tobe random i hate this monk skill stuff going on, eg heal party.. heal party is a really nice skill if multiple allies are taking damage, as u dont haveto individualy heal each one, which may or may not be more effecient, but theres the time and selecting target issue, plus it has huge range too

i currently run dwaynas kiss, sig of rejuvenation, orison, sig of devotion, blessed light, heal party, healing breeze and res chant

healing prayers 14 (12+1+1) devine 13 (12+1)

the weakness of the build would be no "active" energy management, just 2 sigs, and not much in the way of hex/condition removal. ive found conditions are often quickly reapplied in pve anyways, so never dedicated a skill solely to that for awhile.

the res which is aprently awful returns someone with the same health as your current health (521 lookint at my bar) and 33% energy with 14 on healing prayers. plus it has greater range than restore life, and more health (often crucial when raising someone).

for a MM healing breeze is nice to cast on them when u can so they can use blood of the master once or twice more, or bring along heal area aswell

oh and the build isnt using any nightfall skills, cos i havent really looked into them yet :$

mikkel · Nov 16, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I don't care what anyone says, I use this build when healing PvE, and I haven't lost a single group for the past few months regardless of how stupid the PUG was.

Healing 16, Divine Favor 15, +5en axe from the crafter in Divine Path with a +30 fortitude and whatever other mod you want, 20/20 collector's healing focus.

[skill=card]Orison of Healing[/skill][skill=card]Heal Other[/skill][skill=card]Blessed Light[/skill][skill=card]Signet of Devotion[/skill][skill=card]Healing Touch[/skill][skill=card]Heal Party[/skill][skill=card]Divine Spirit[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Simple and effective. Usage should be self-explanatory.

In areas where enchant stripping is of no concern, and where proximity healing would be beneficial, I sometimes go with the following.

Same stats and equipment as above, except the axe, which you should switch for a Totem Axe in this build. Since the only Divine Favor skill in this one is Divine Spirit, you can replace the Superior DF with a minor DF to compensate for the health that you lose by switching axes.

[skill=card]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill=card]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill=card]Healing Hands[/skill][skill=card]Healing Seed[/skill][skill=card]Vigorous Spirit[/skill][skill=card]Heal Party[/skill][skill=card]Divine Spirit[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Predict who's going to take the hits, apply HS first, followed by HH on others if needed, stack enchants, and use them as kickers for Dwayna's Kiss. Works beautifully.

Rey De Tutti · Nov 19, 2006, 08:57 AM // 08:57

just a quick question regarding the "high" energycost of BL and Heal Party. Would it be an idea to use Glyph of Lesser Energy in conjunction with them ? both spells would only cost 5en total. ?? basically you could cast rebirth twice (if you can change target fast enough hehe)

Don't flame me pls :P
(I have used my monk mainly as a 55 farmer, but a bit bored of that, so I want to experiment and learn more of the diversity of the monk.)

moko · Nov 19, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey De Tutti

just a quick question regarding the "high" energycost of BL and Heal Party. Would it be an idea to use Glyph of Lesser Energy in conjunction with them ? both spells would only cost 5en total. ?? basically you could cast rebirth twice (if you can change target fast enough hehe)

Don't flame me pls :P
(I have used my monk mainly as a 55 farmer, but a bit bored of that, so I want to experiment and learn more of the diversity of the monk.)

yes - if you use Glyph of Lesser Energy (i suggest doing a dual Heal Party or Aegis/Heal Party instead of Blight), both spells will be free, meaning you only lose 5 energy for usage of the glyph.

Amok Affinity · Nov 19, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

hum, aside from woh-based the only other pve build i really liked was:

blight {e}
rof
goh
ps
mend condition/leech sig
power drain
sig of devotion
<insert soft/hard res here>

forgot the exact attribute spread, but whatever works works
12ish prot
10ish df
7ish hp
7ish inspiration

management can suck if you don't have 'spell'casters around but meh

edit: with nf out ive regained some interest in monking, light of deliverance (i think) looks like a nice situational heal, might want to play with a build based around that, GOLE/hp or somesuch for bulk healing? might be fun~

Ensign · Nov 19, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

I'm convinced that every good PvE Monk bar starts with:

Signet of Devotion
Gift of Health
Protective Spirit
Mend/Dismiss Condition

With the rest of the skills not mattering all that much as you don't use them often.

Furthermore I'm convinced that there's nothing in Healing Prayers that's so good that it's worth dropping Gift of Health for.

Peace,
-CxE

Darkpower Alchemist · Nov 19, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

[skill=big]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill]

My quick heal skill of choice.

[skill=big]Orison of Healing[/skill]

The skill all the new monks get first. Do we see the difference in these 2 skills?

Actually,Sig of Rejuvenation has been sped up to 7 recharge,iirc. Also,since most of the people who I use this on are attacking, then the double heal boost for 0 mana is a definite plus. All monks should look into this.

And on to my use of SoJ;

[skill=big]Shield of Judgment[/skill]

I use this for defensive purposes. In the case of warriors or ranged attackers attacking me on the backline, or spiking the warrior/other character on the front line or mid range, this stops that cold in most cases. Also I have avoided being killed due to PuG warriors who don't have the defensive skill to know how to prevent enemies from totally getting passed them and reaching me or fellow casters to prevent the obvious.

When using multiple attributes, Div Fav comes into play as a healing buffer in all 3 lines of spells. If I use a protection hench,I can then Aegis chain by letting the hench cast first. Protective spirit is another obvious spell on the bar that needs little to no explaination.

As stated previously,in PvE you have more versatility to play with your build. Spikes in PvE do exist,so one that plays a monk should realize that spiking doesn't only happen in PvP,but in all aspects of combat in the game.

With 2 signets in play,you can manage your energy well enough to heal and protect for an effective time limit.

Healing breeze,in PvE is quite effective in repressing degen hexes and poison/bleeding. It is a spell I would keep on my bar for the most part.

Once again,I repeat my first disclaimer,I AM AN EXPERINCED MONK AND THIS MAY NOT BE FOR ALL INVOLVED TO USE. This being the case,I don't expect everyone to run the build I run. When I am in the Tombs as a monk,I go heavier into healing,and depend on the rangers and the MM for protection. 10 minions are a better wall than 2 warriors. SoJ is not needed in that build type. Nor is smiting,for that matter.

If I play a Boon monk, then energy management becomes the focus since protection spells need to be recast at a quicker rate,and coupled with Div Fav and the -2 per cast for Boon's upkeep,then you need more E Management. This type of build is also for more experienced monk players.

The "simple but effective" style builds work for general PvE, but are unable to make the transition to high level PvE. Orison is just not very viable in places where enemies may hit in unison for a spike. It just doesn't pump out enough healing imho, at that level of play. Hex removal and condition removal have a place in high end PvE, as well as PvP, but if you are playing a dual monk setup, then 1 should most likely carry HB on their bar,for no less than supression of degeneration.

Maxiemonster · Nov 19, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

What's important about a PvE monk build for me is that it (1) has enough slots to equip 2 or even 3 Signets of Capture and (2) that it only uses monk skills, so you can cap any elite without having to change your entire build.

Personally, I'd say Zealous Benediction. It works really well, and has 2 slots that are pretty much empty. What I advice is this:

14 Protection Prayers (12+1+1)
11 Healing Prayers (10+1)
9 Divine Favor (8+1)

1. Zealous Benediction [Elite]
2. Gift of Health
3. Mend Condition
4. Protective Spirit
5. Holy Veil / Signet of Capture
6. Signet of Devotion / Signet of Capture
7. Sunspear Rebirth Signet / Signet of Capture
8. Ressurection Signet / Rebirth / Signet of Capture

I've only taken 4 Signet of Captures once so far, but still, this build is pretty nice with only 4 skills, which you can't say about most builds.

Ensign · Nov 19, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I don't dislike Zealous Benediction, but it really wants you to pump your Prot like mad and makes the Signet of Devotion / Gift of Health combination lose a lot of power. I don't like that at all, since Benediction is the 3rd heal on that bar not the first. I think you basically need to drop Gift to run Benediction and just become a pro at hitting it whenever it'll trigger.

I'm all about riding a ton of Signets of Capture, but I'm unaware of the zone that neccessitates running more than two in Nightfall.

Peace,
-CxE